SCOTT SIMON, HOST:
Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene announced last night she will resign in January. The Georgia Republican said that other than diverging from President Trump on a few issues, including the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files, she has been loyal to President Trump.
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MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE: My voting record has been solidly with my party and the president. Loyalty should be a two-way street.
SIMON: NPR's Ron Elving joins us. Ron, thanks for being with us.
RON ELVING, BYLINE: Good to be with you, Scott.
SIMON: In response to Representative Taylor Greene's announcement, President Trump called her a traitor on Truth Social this morning. Does this tell us something more about what's going on in the Republican Party?
ELVING: Surely, it's the cost of crossing swords with this particular president. Insisting on absolute loyalty has been a Trump trademark. But this falling out also says something about what's going on in the party. The remarkable unity that has bolstered Republicans in the Trump era has been tested, and not only by the Epstein files, but by deep differences over policy, especially foreign policy on Ukraine and most especially on Israel.
SIMON: President Trump also this week took aim at some Democratic lawmakers, accusing them of sedition over a video they released saying that members of the military are legally allowed to refuse unlawful orders. The president wrote in a post online, this is, quote, "punishable by death." What kind of threat is this, especially at a time when we've seen violence against public figures, including President Trump himself?
ELVING: It's akin to the way Trump has talked about people who defied him in the past, including the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, the top uniformed officer of the United States, who refused to assist Trump's efforts to defy election results in 2020. Now, the fact is our armed forces swear an oath to defend the Constitution and to follow orders so long as they are lawful. The challenge is what to do when orders clearly go beyond what is lawful.
SIMON: President Trump on Thursday signed the bill allowing for the release of the Jeffrey Epstein files - total reversal of his course, of course. What's next and when?
ELVING: We're supposed to wait up to 30 days to see what's in the files, but there are a lot of question marks. What are the exceptions, the off-ramps, the special circumstances that might withhold some of the files or parts of them? Who's going to decide, and who will review that decision, and who might push back if the files do not all come out?
SIMON: The latest NPR/PBS News/Marist poll this week shows 80% of Americans have little or no confidence in Congress. Now, of course, we ought to add the political parties, the Supreme Court, the presidency, the media score only slightly better. What could this mean as we enter midterm campaigns?
ELVING: Right now, Trump's poll numbers are falling, and they're right where they were eight years ago, heading into a cycle where his party lost big and lost control in the House, 2018. And the departure of Marjorie Taylor Greene and others signals a deeper unease within the GOP over the economy and the general perception of Trump and his policies. That means incumbents who usually would not have any trouble getting reelected might struggle this time, and that's good. Whichever party's in power, that's good for democracy. It means incumbents have to campaign and defend their votes.
But, Scott, let me walk back something I said last week. I said there were no more elections coming up before the next showdown and shutdown over health insurance. I should have said there were not any more multistate election days or big tests or something like that because there is a special election coming up in a deep red district in Tennessee. There's a Trump-endorsed Republican named Matt Van Epps, and a Democrat who's a state legislator from Nashville, and her name is Aftyn Behn. Trump won that district by 22 points in 2024, but polls show the current race tightening. And the voting is on December 2.
SIMON: NPR's Ron Elving, thanks so much for being with us. Speak to soon.
ELVING: Thank you, Scott. Transcript provided by NPR, Copyright NPR.
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